Jesus vs. Christians, Round 1
Gavin posted this today and I found it too interesting not to duplicate.
What’s the first thing that comes to mind when you think of “Jesus”? How about Christians?
Technorati Tags: Jesus, Christianity, Gavin Richardson, Jeffrey Davis
I'm Jeffrey Davis: writer, blogger, personal trainer, and soon-to-be published author. I totally dig eco-friendliness, but eco-snobbery sucks. This is my personal blog where I completely shoot from the hip with any topic, pic, video, or quote that I find funny, thought-provoking, or interesting. Enjoy.
May 16th, 2007 at 4:44 pm
Jeffrey,
What are you trying to do?
Seriously, I have serious questions about your motivation and intention. I’ve asked you if you are a Christian, and you’ve not answered the question directly, as far as I can tell. You answer a straightforward question with vague avoidance.
You then talk about being on a spiritual journey that leads you away from the Bible, and about how God Is Love.
But your last few posts have been very critical of Christianity and other Christians in what seems to be an almost judgmental way. I have a problem with that, because it seems like part of your current spiritual journey is leading you down an anti-Christian path whereby you derive a certain satisfaction out of criticising other facets of Christianity.
I know this is a trend in a LOT of twentysomething people coming out of the church, and I understand the reasons for it. But I don’t think it’s productive, and I don’t think it’s what God would have us do.
If you are still part of the church, then feel free to work with others of us in the church to refine our own individual spirits according to the guidance of the Will of Christ.
But if you are moving outside the church, emerging from it or trying on a different suit of faith-clothes, you need to realise that you are no longer playing inside baseball with Christians and you might decide to adopt a different style of dialogue.
May 16th, 2007 at 10:24 pm
wow, kat, i must admit this kind of caught me off guard. i’m sorry that I’ve obviously upset you with my last two posts.
I admit, I’ve often been guilty of cynicism and judgmentalism. However, as I have recently been becoming more and more conscious of God, who is Love, in and around me, I have been more aware such ugliness and feel as though Love is at least beginning to reign in my spirit.
I do not see how my last two posts can be interpreted as judgmental or of malcontent in the least. I actually take great care in making sure that such sensitive questions do not come across as such.
I assure you that I derive no satisfaction from the criticizing of Christianity or any other religion, for that matter. That said, I do long for the day when the walls and barriers that religion greatly helps to support to come to an end.
Let me also say, for the record, that my journey is in no adherence with popular trends of the day. My spiritual journey is just that. It is my journey into the great and mysterious Love that is and characterizes God.
You asked me if I was a Christian over at TCP’s post from yesterday. As I mentioned there, my response was *not* a vague avoidance. I answered you honestly and sincerely…and in great detail. If you would like to discuss the matter further, I would be more than happy to to do so with you.
Kat, I respect you greatly among the bloggers that I read. Misunderstandings and quarrels are bound to arise in such a forum as this, void of perception of one’s body language, tone, and spirit. It is for such a reason as this that I long for this blog to facilitate relationships and conversations that extend beyond the blogosphere and into the real life, where people can more aptly and completely relate.
Again, I apologize for somehow offending and upsetting you recently. I will take even greater care to mind my tone here. I shall, however, continue to put forth the questions that many wonder, but seldom ask. I believe that it is healthy to ask, wrestle, discuss, and ponder difficult things pertaining to this life. I hope that this place be only the jumping off point…
Love, Peace, and Grace to you Kat.
May 17th, 2007 at 8:00 am
wow, kat, i must admit this kind of caught me off guard. i’m sorry that I’ve obviously upset you with my last two posts.
I don’t know that I would say I was “upset” as much as “incredulous”.
I do not see how my last two posts can be interpreted as judgmental or of malcontent in the least.
Well, the last post started off with “Why does a Christian pray? They think that by the words of the prayer, their hearts condition at the time, and often times the frequency and number of people simultaneously praying that prayer, that God will do what they ask.”
That sounded to me like you seemed to know what thought process motivated a Christian to pray, assuming the basest of motives. That was why I thought it was so important to explain otherwise. Yes, some Christians, misguided, abuse intercessory prayer.
Likewise, some Christians, human through and through, will do things which give The Church and The Faith a bad name. When you posted this video (without additional comment) it seemed to follow the theme you’ve had going lately, which as a regular reader comes across TO ME (I can’t speak for anyone else) as “I’m all about Love now, because Traditional Christianity SUCKS. See how bad it is?” We’ve had the post about the Gay Fetuses, which assumes that pro-lifers would execute homosexuals. We’ve had the post about how bad church buildings are because they waste good money. Then the post about how Christians’ prayer lives are the same as Wiccan spellcasting–a post which gravely misunderstood and oversimplified both Christianity and Wicca.
It all sort of comes together to me as a reader as not an exploration of the facets of Christianity as much as a cynical dismissal of what one would call “traditional” Christianity.
I’m a Mennonite. I’m a Christian Mystic. I’ve spent a LIFETIME straddling the worlds of traditional and non-traditional Christianity. I was “emergent church” before they came up with a name for it. (And maintain that most of the Emerging Church is “Mennonite” renamed.) To me it is very different to question the church and her practices from within as opposed to criticising them from without. One has the aspect of reform, the other of abuse. While there is much about “traditional” Christianity I do find suspect, I don’t care for the bitter cynicism about it because such cynicism seems to fail to account for the humanity of the participants.
Take “church buildings” for instance. That’s something you and I tend to agree on. From my perspective it does seem that a lot of money is put into the building of a church and that much of that money could be spent elsewhere. However, I realise that there are many people for whom building a church is an act of worship. While God has given me the talent to write and to honour God with the written word, he has given others the talents of architecture, stained-glass crafting and building. The act of crafting a building for God is worship for those people. For other people, being able to worship God in a beautiful place is part of their worship. It may not seem necessary to me, but I cannot judge another’s heart.
And there’s the problem I have with the recent spate of posts here, and there’s why I asked “what are you trying to do here?” because I read the recent spate of posts as attempts to judge the heart of others, and at the same time realised that perhaps I was in danger of misjudging your heart. So I asked. “What are you doing?” What is in your heart? What is your intention in writing these things?
I will take even greater care to mind my tone here. I shall, however, continue to put forth the questions that many wonder, but seldom ask. I believe that it is healthy to ask, wrestle, discuss, and ponder difficult things pertaining to this life.
I believe it’s healthy. And I have no problems discussing religions with anyone. We do it a lot at my blog and at TCP. But we try to do it from a place of respect for all faiths and understanding. Or understanding that we don’t understand. Mostly you do do that, but it does seem lately that you are willing to take other faiths at face value but to deride Christianity.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
“That sounded to me like you seemed to know what thought process motivated a Christian to pray, assuming the basest of motives.”
Ok, I agree that I committed one of the major literary fallacies here. I admit, that opening statement was a hasty generalization. However, though a stereotype, I believe that to be the general thought process and motivation behind a majority of Christians’ prayer.
““I’m all about Love now, because Traditional Christianity SUCKS. See how bad it is?” “
I see how a person could view that as my motivation. I really do. However, I don’t care about proving that traditional Christianity sucks. I do believe that there is a more perfect representation of Love that one can live in than what, stereotypically, traditional Christianity affords and promotes. I’ve come to a place on my journey where I don’t see it as “i’m right and you’re wrong” and vice versa, but that the reality exists wherein a child learning to draw, continually draws more perfect circles than before. It’s not that all were not circles, but others just look more like the ideal circle that the child pictures when they attempt to draw (that’s not my own analogy, that’s a C.S. Lewis one, btw).
I hear what you’re saying about the possibility of judging other’s motives, church buildings, personal worship, etc. I mean not to judge or critique the “worship” of anyone. However, if a person I train at the gym believes that, for them, the best workout is 4 times a week at 3 hours per workout, I would have to tell them , in love, that though their motivation is noble and true, the way in which they are acting on it is not the most conducive to growth or the healthiest thing for them.
Again, I’m not saying, “i’ve got it figured out and you chumps are just in the dark”. No, I realize that I too am and will CONTINUALLY realize more perfect versions of the circle that we strive and journey towards. I realize that the “circle I draw” now is not the be-all, end-all of circles, but it is simply the most perfect one I am currently able to draw.
I am sorry that I have unknowingly painted the picture to you that I’m about deriding Christianity and openly accepting all else. That is not my intent. Have I successfully explained some motives and positions I hold here Kat?
May 17th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
I do believe that there is a more perfect representation of Love that one can live in than what, stereotypically, traditional Christianity affords and promotes.
I think that shows a grave misunderstanding of the nature of the religion of Christianity and perhaps a confusing of the Religion with the Culture of Christianity.
but that the reality exists wherein a child learning to draw, continually draws more perfect circles than before. It’s not that all were not circles, but others just look more like the ideal circle that the child pictures when they attempt to draw (that’s not my own analogy, that’s a C.S. Lewis one, btw).
I’m familiar with it. But it does seem like you’re drawing your circles–which is fine–but that part of your circle drawing seems to be “Look! I’ve got a better circle than YOU!”
However, if a person I train at the gym believes that, for them, the best workout is 4 times a week at 3 hours per workout, I would have to tell them , in love, that though their motivation is noble and true, the way in which they are acting on it is not the most conducive to growth or the healthiest thing for them.
See. That’s what I’m talking about. In the gym you are an expert. You are dealing with a the tangible and scientific.
The spiritual realm is NOT the gym. You are not an expert. You are not dealing with the scientific or the tangible. God is the expert and it’s God’s job to shape the spirit.
Have I successfully explained some motives and positions I hold here Kat?
No. I remain confused. I believe you are well-intentioned and perhaps I am not fully understanding, but with things like your gym analogy I’m not quite sure where you’re headed.
May 17th, 2007 at 7:03 pm
Hey Jeffrey,
Personally I can identify with what the video portrays (i.e. Christian hypocrisies). Although Christianity promotes living as Jesus did (as love), research is clear that Christians are actually more prone to moral failures than ‘non-Christians’.
I think the post is very positive because it prompts Christians to pause and ask the question “Why do people think that about us?”.
For most of my life I would call myself a Christian but now I hesitate because it’s definition is way to w i d e…from little christ, disciple of Jesus to a good guy who takes care of his family and goes to church on easter and christmas…go figure.
May 18th, 2007 at 12:04 am
kat,
it’s becoming clear to me that we are experiencing numerous misunderstanding and misinterpretations between each other. I feel as if we’ve inadvertently resorted to semantics, more than anything else.
I assure you, i’m not claiming (as with the gym analogy) to be any kind of “spiritual expert” or guru, nor am I trying to prove my views to be right and others to be wrong. I’m simply throwing out some questions and thoughts that I’m working with on my spiritual journey and it seems as perhaps I have done so in such a way that muddies the waters of my motivation.
I do not mean to cut off the conversation and leave you hanging, still confused as to my thoughts. I suggest we continue this convo over coffee or something, since the nonverbal communications therein will GREATLY benefit such a conversation. Don’t you think?
May 19th, 2007 at 4:45 am
[...] Recently, I’ve been in several discussions [like this one, this one, and this one] around the blogosphere where misunderstandings have seemed to abound. You see, as you read these very words right now, you are projecting on me a certain tone, motivation, and circumstance that your subconscious fabricates based on a number of things. [...]